3.5 Trip Question

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:38 pm

Roy wrote:
Crissa wrote:Hehe. There's an achievement! Must have used trip on a beholder five times successfully... You learn how to keep 'em spinning for a disorientation bonus.

-Crissa
Epic Win is Epic.

Plus Fvcking One.

Warmaster: so, beholders are trippable as far as you're concerned?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:47 am

It may not make them fall, but I doubt it'll make them happy ^-^

-Crissa

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:35 am

Yea, I'm fine with that exception. Think of it as ripping a hole in their gas bladder, if it helps.

I also like that you can trip a flying dragon, unless he has cast Fly.

This is now my rule-of-thumb as a DM.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:08 am

Bigode wrote: And how did the translations go, BTW?

I cheated made the only correct decision by not translating the mechanics at all. (Otherwise the end users would translate them back to English to correlate with the D&D rules we didn't throw out of the window and again to Russian to announce the ruling. And we know what the end result would be when the users in question don't know enough English to appreciate the original Tomes).

Whenever I couldn't avoid translating game terms, I italicized them and provided the English term and page reference in the margins for the text version / tooltips for the html version.

Initial reactions were mixed, from "I luv fighters this is so cool I'm now even more powerful" to "If you're running the game based on this consider me out because wizards are now teh suck" (and nothing of value was lost). The game itself lasted for 13 sessions from character level 9 to 15, and the warrior-types (Tome Barbarian and Cielingcat's Shadow Warrior) actually kept up with the sorcerer (Stranger), wizard (Uttercold Assault!) and cleric (Tome feats, Tome limit on nightsticks and spells known). And not having to resort to shit like "Um, the demon forgot to teleport without error, please don't ask awkward questions and kill it already" was definitely worth the work.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:45 am

Wait, no rulebooks in Russian? And, if they could read the English ones, why translate?

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:27 am

Here's a question: Is there some easy way we can rearrange the "interfering things cause you to fall" rules (you got entangled, tripped, or whatever while flying) such that you do not fall *straight down* when you were just flying 200 feet / round, without causing the rules to be needlessly complex? Some might say "don't worry too much about realism" but I personally feel that this is conspicuous enough whenever it happens in-game to warrant attention.

Another worthwhile topic could be the discussion of shortcuts for determining 3D slant ranges.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:31 am

Caedrus wrote:Here's a question: Is there some easy way we can rearrange the "interfering things cause you to fall" rules (you got entangled, tripped, or whatever while flying) such that you do not fall *straight down* when you were just flying 200 feet / round, without causing the rules to be needlessly complex?

Why would we do that? The round is six seconds long and the flying creature moves its whole fly speed on its turn. It moves its whole fall speed when it falls. Since those are different vectors, the creature actually ends up in about the right place at the end of the round. 200 feet over and all the way down. The part that is wrong is not the final position of the falling pegasus, but the final position of the guy who knocked it out of the sky - he should have intercepted it somewhere along its flight path rather than be floating over its crash site. But that's a systemic problem with all melee interceptions in D&D turn based action mechanics. No one ever intercepts anyone in the right places just because of how movement interacts with initiative.

Another worthwhile topic could be the discussion of shortcuts for determining 3D slant ranges.

I'm fond of having the people on higher ground simply measure across while the people below have to measure across and up and then add the two together. Having higher ground is supposed to be an advantage.

-Username17

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:56 am

FrankTrollman wrote: I'm fond of having the people on higher ground simply measure across while the people below have to measure across and up and then add the two together. Having higher ground is supposed to be an advantage.

-Username17

I like it. Pure and simple, and emphasizes the relative advantage of higher altitudes (such as "You can't shoot an arrow up as far as you can shoot it across"). It's also compatible with the ideas for simplifying 3D movement that I have been working with.

I may just have to use this, if'n ye don't mind

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:41 pm

Bigode wrote:Wait, no rulebooks in Russian? And, if they could read the English ones, why translate?

Only the core set exists in Russian, and very poorly translated at that. Rules wordings are not checked for consistency, thus if one is playing D&D in Russian he or she is playing a different game. There is a number of unofficial core rules translations people are using and no official translations for splatbooks, so getting people on the same page (page XX) is nearly impossible. Terms have no meaning out of context. What's "ability"? Skill, feat, ability score, SA, SQ, Ex, Su, Sp, spell, power, SKL, take your pick. What, "ability" as in "Fake ability" from "Use magic item"? /cry

So English rulebooks are the primary rules source (and the translated rules turn out to be marginally more useful than Sage Advice). And with the knowledge of English obtained in school and from the rare videogame people can read them in a pinch, guessing the meaning or recalling it from previous rulings. But sometimes I get an email asking to explain "This ability negates cover and concealment" from the arcane archer (why would anyone play that?) description, because no one in the gaming group was able to.

TL;DR people who can't speak English won't read English texts voluntarily. Reading Tomes is education and fun, so even if forced to read at knifepoint, the educational component would suffer (brainpower is finite, whatever is spent on translation beyond a certain amount won't get used to grasp the meaning) and the fun is lost. While humor doesn't translate well (and there's no good Russian equivalent for 'awesome'), I think I did a good job preserving these two components.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:22 pm

Fun fact! Although a couple of abilities reference "magical flight' as something opposed, presumably, to "nonmagical flight," flight is a movement speed, not an ability. You don't have flight as an Su OR as an Ex, you just have a number and a maneuverability.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:06 am

Boolean wrote:Fun fact! Although a couple of abilities reference "magical flight' as something opposed, presumably, to "nonmagical flight," flight is a movement speed, not an ability. You don't have flight as an Su OR as an Ex, you just have a number and a maneuverability.

Not exactly.

SRD, Movement Modes wrote:Movement Modes link

Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

Burrow

A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

Climb

A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

Fly

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Fluff removed. Relevant link.

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

Flight (Ex or Su)

A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.

Swim

A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

These are the rules. Now I'll try to make sense of them.

"Fly" is a type of Movement Speed. Movement Speeds allow to move in an appropriate Medium. List of Media (mode): Land (walk and run), Wall Or Slope (climb), Water (swim), Air (fly), Dirt (burrow), Stone (Improved burrow). If you're in a medium and you have the appropriate movement mode, you use the movement mode rules. If you don't have the relevant movement mode, you use the "mundane" rules (Climb skill, Swim skill, Falling, Being Pinned By a Fvcking Avalanche).

"Flight" is a Special Quality, which can be either [Ex]traordinary or [Su]pernatural.

Flight allows to switch Fly mode on and off as a free action. Also, if your Flight is Su and you're in an AMF, Fly mode, if you had it On, is lost and the switch is suppressed (it's not clear in which state, On or Off, Fly comes back if it was On). Creatures that have Fly X but don't have Flight cannot turn it off: they Fly whenever they're in Air.

Can I climb a rope with climb speed, burrow in sand, swim in Bromine and fly in Chlorine? By the rules, no.

To quote Caelic, "'The rules don't say I can't!' is not practical optimization. (...) There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. (...) This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't. An underlying assumption is that, apart from common-sense actions which anyone can perform, the system will tell you if a given character has a given ability."

We can say any gas counts as air, any liquid as water and so on, but web is definitely no wall or slope, so a spider cannot use Climb mode to climb its own web, which is all kinds of retarded.
BTW, am I Flying* when I'm falling through air?
*as a term potentially independent from Fly, as in "Flying creature".
Falling through air on the Elemental Plane of Air?
Why Flying/Fly/Flight is more of an "advantage" on the EPA (as compared to Prime Material)?
What type of action "choosing a down direction" is? GIANT FROG
If I'm not Flying while falling (as I'm (probably) not Burrowing while pinned by an avalanche), then Gust of Wind hurts me less than it does an arrowhawk. Wtf.
What is "nonmagical flight"? Winged? Not Su? Not Flight (as per SRD, Reading Monster Entries "Unless noted otherwise, modes of movement are natural (not magical)", where "noted otherwise" is, in case of flying, Flight)? GIANT FROG
The Flightless Fly and Flight Fly were assigned to monsters without any rhyme or reason. The Yeth Hound looks like a fvcking dog and has Su; good for it. The Product Identity Beholder has Ex because it's an unobtainium* balloon; good for it too (we don't want beholders to fall in an AMF). The generic owl doesn't have Flight because it's natural, and natural it is (owls exist). But Pegasi don't have Flight as well, so their Fly is supposed to be natural, despite the notable absence of actual pegasi in the world. (Even the fvcking description says "magical beast".) What about genies?
*Helium doesn't explain moving around.
Creatures with Flight Ex can hover and fall down. Creatures without Flight which can hover (minimum forward speed = 0) cannot choose to fall down. Wtf.

Oh, I actually found some consistency. It appears that every winged (fvcking artwork!) creature in the SRD doesn't have Flight at all. So, empirically, having Flight as either Ex or Su makes you immune to tripping. (Edit: incorrect, see Voss' post).
The spell Fly could have been defined as granting a fly speed, but the spell doesn't allow running but allows charging, while the fly speed allows running but doesn't allow charging (it has diving instead). GIANT FROG
Which is GIANT FROG self-contradictory, as the GIANT FROG first sentence in the rules defines running as yet GIANT FROG another mode of GIANT FROG movement. GIANT FROG

TL;DR 3d movement in 3.5E doesn't make sense. At all. Also, giant frog.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:53 am

And I now have my morning laugh.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:21 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote: That explains why wingless flying things like beholders can't be tripped. I'm not sure why Superman should be untrippable.

Actually from that FAQ quote, he can be tripped. He uses limbs for locomotion. The fact that he doesn't use them for the flying specifically is apparently irrelevant.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:57 am

Okay, I'll say it.

GIANT FROG.